FireTalkers: Interview with Chuck Evans of Montezuma Brand
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ShareI'm very pleased to bring you this interview with Chuck Evans. For the few of you spicy food aficionados who are unfamiliar with him, Chuck was the first person to introduce a smokey chipotle sauce (in fact, he owns trademarks to the terms Smokey Chipotle® and Smokin' Chipotle®), the world's first maker of chile-specific pepper sauces, and continues to produce award-winning sauces, salsas, seasonings and other items under the Montezuma Brand name. He's a book author (co-writing both The Hot Sauce Bible and The Pepper Pantry - Chipotle), at one time owned the largest documented collection of hot pepper sauces on earth (which he has since generously donated to a food pantry), and is an all-around fiery foods industry expert and historian.
This Columbus, Ohio-based manufacturer agreed to answer some of my questions, and waxed scholarly on topics including the fiery foods scene both past and present, his own products, and those who have infringed on his trademarks to cash in on the exploding chipotle trend. I found this stuff so fascinating that I think a "sequel" interview may be in order; but until then, here is Chuck...
Chuck glowing with pride at his 1st Place Award for Salsa at the 2009 Annual Weekend of Fire show
Chuck: Pre-1986, when I began to manufacture [my own products], and possibly as early as 1974. As a "chilehead", which as a term did not exist until decades later, I liked to try spicy foods - spicy in relation to that time period and what was available, which was very limited - around the time I graduated high school in 1976. It was long before the term was ever used in the industry.
Scott: How did you get started making your own salsas and hot sauces?
Chuck: I traveled to the southwest in my teenage years and Guatemala and Mexico shortly thereafter, long before I even considered making salsas and sauces. I took Spanish in high school which also added to my interest in Hispanic foods and further added to my interest in agricultural foodstuffs.
Scott: Why did you initially select the chipotle chile as your trademark ingredient in your products?
Chuck: In 1988 at the very 1st Fiery Foods show, jalapenos were considered a really "hot" chile, along with pequins, chiles de arbol, tabasco chiles, cayenne chiles, and other annuum varieties. Habaneros were basically unknown (although some of the Caribbean and Yucatan pepper sauces made with scotch bonnets and congo chiles were known) and very rare. The first individual to grow, manufacture, and distribute habanero products in the United States was Jeff Campbell of Stonewall Chili Company from the hill country of Stonewall, Texas. He grew orange habaneros. This was long before Red Savinas came into commercial existence. I thought that all the talk about "hot" was not long-lived and that flavor with fire was more appropriate for daily use.
While in Mexico I discovered chipotles, ironically almost impossible to find along the border states and in the Mexican bodegas of East L.A., Chicago, and Texas where large concentrations of Mexicans immigrated. I had a meal - Pollo con Chile Chipotle in Veracruz, Mexico which blew my socks off-hot, smoky, and a flavor like no other. I decided to make the very 1st "Smokey Chipotle®" pepper sauce and Smokey Chipotle® salsa in the country.
When I filed the very first application using the word chipotle (Smokey Chipotle®) at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office in 1993, no one in the general public had any idea what a chipotle was, other than a name for a chile (actually a processed spice) and I created a "suggestive" phrase that was approved, disclaiming the word "chipotle". I was suggesting the flavor profile, not describing it, which is the reason my trademark was granted. All of my critics do not understand trademark law as to suggestive use - because no one knew what a chipotle actually was - so I had to suggest that it had a smoky flavor. The difference is that had the general public known what a chipotle was way back then, the term would have been descriptive and possibly denied. The examining attorney understood the difference, unlike those who challenge me on my trademark.
I believed that the chipotle would become a major spice and presence long before it became known...in this case I was dead-on. Another true anecdote, I used to put dried chipotles out on the table at my booth in the early 1990s at the Fiery Foods Show and even people in New Mexico and Texas asked me what they were, and these states border Mexico. In this I was way before its time, and therefore a pioneer, thus the reason why I specialized in chile chipotle in my product line. I co-authored a book Pepper Pantry: Chipotle (published by Celestial Arts Press), with Dave DeWitt in 1997. It is still in print and explains the history of chipotles and contains a myriad of recipes.
Scott: How long did it take you to develop the recipe for your first pepper sauce and first salsa?
Chuck: About four months to develop a consistent product and how to hot fill. I had no one to talk with, there were few labs, and I had to figure out a product's PH which was more of an extensive testing process. Today [that process] takes a few minutes. [Back then] it was unlike today's manufacturers who can find out everything at the fiery food shows. I had to find suppliers for glass, lids, labels, ingredients, including shipping chiles from all parts of the country, etc.. Safety seals (shrink bands) were high tech prevention and were not even common when I started. Now every ingredient and packaging option is available in just about every city.
Scott: In the past, you've stated before that the first Fiery Foods Show held in El Paso in 1988 was the birth of current fiery foods movement. From your viewpoint what was the spicy food industry like before that event?
Chuck: There wasn't one. Dave DeWitt and Nancy Gerlach's The Whole Chile Pepper Magazine started the current fiery foods industry. Prior to that a few small manufacturers existed, one of which was Patty Swindler of Arizona who made one of the very first nationally recognized specialty salsa brands, Desert Rose - and it was a great product line of four salsas plus Desert Rose's Alberta's Peppers, [which was] a pickled pepper mixture that was to die for. The only products on the major chain grocery stores were the [major] brands: Pace, La Victoria, La Preferida, Ortega, and Old El Paso.
There were specialty pepper sauces, some from the Caribbean, such as Matouk's and Grace Foods, which existed in Caribbean markets in Florida, New York City, and Toronto. Hot sauces on the national store shelves consisted primarily of McIlhenny's Tabasco (only) Sauce, Frank's RedHot Sauce, and Trappey's Red Devil. There were regional brands: Casa Fiesta, Texas Pete's, Jardine's, TryMe Tiger Sauce, and a host of Louisiana pepper sauces; however, the variety was incredibly limited. And a tabasco chile was [at the time] considered very hot.
Scott: Approximately how many different hot sauces and salsas were available at the time?
Chuck: In 1995 my extensive pepper sauce and salsa collection, which was the largest documented collection of its kind in the world up until I donated the entire collection to the Columbus, Ohio Food Pantry (upon publication of The Hot Sauce Bible, another book I co-authored with Dave DeWitt), was documented in detail and was included in that book. I estimate that there were about 4,000 - 5,000 products made with chiles in the world at that time. Currently, there are probably 50,000 - 75,000 products presently made and in regular distribution, and who knows how many tens of thousands have failed and no longer exist the past 20 years.
Scott: Speaking of Dave DeWitt, how did you two initially hook up for the first Fiery Foods Show, and ultimately team up together for The Hot Sauce Bible?
Chuck: All because of The Whole Chile Pepper Magazine - a one-shot magazine-style "book" of which I purchased a copy of shortly after it was published (possibly 1987?). The first Fiery Foods Show consisted of 33 vendors and was held in El Paso, Texas in 1988. I responded to their call for exhibitors for the very first show.
Chuck and 'The Hot Sauce Bible' at the 1996 National Fiery Foods Show
Scott: Are you still in the process of researching and writing the follow-up book to The Hot Sauce Bible, which had the working title of The Hot Sauce Bible: New Testament? If so, how is that coming along?
Chuck: No, it presently is on hold; however, it will be published someday. I came up with the title and plan on using it. The longer it takes, the more current it will be as to some of the shake-out occurring today due to the economy, the difficulty of getting funding, loans, and supplier credit. The world has completely changed as cash is king and every manufacturer that is not a corporate conglomerate is struggling with all sorts of cash flow issues. Additionally, distributors are consolidating their products lines and many small companies are being dumped by distributors who are also thinning out inventories. I was asked whether The Hot Sauce Bible would be followed up when I was the guest "authority" on the History Channel's American Eats "Salsa" episode and also their Hot Sauce history segment of their "Condiment" feature. I revealed that much of the early history of bottled peppersauces (one word) derived from the hand-blown bottles themselves, of which my collection of 250 peppersauce bottles -produced from 1840 through the turn of the century around 1900 - is substantial and probably the largest historical peppersauce bottle collection in the world.
Scott: How did you initially hook up with John "CaJohn" Hard to share kitchens for the production of both yours and his food product lines?
Chuck: I had my own commercial kitchen since 1986. John was in the fire protection industry and basically got into the fiery foods business because of his love of flavorful and spicy foods, especially Cajun cuisine, thus the moniker "CaJohn's". We became friends after getting a copy of his The Hot Sauce Bible signed.
It is ironic that my building is on the same street in Columbus, Ohio where his fire protection company was located about 300 yards up the street. He asked me if he could sell my products on a new website that he was launching for spicy flavorful foods. He did not know how to manufacture food products at that time (now he is an expert) and he started having co-packers make his own products to add to his website. John found out that co-packing is a pain in the ass for every one involved and ditched his after constant problems.
Originally, he asked me to package his products, but I declined, primarily because co-packing takes time away from building your own brand and there isn't much real money in it. A few years later, he asked me what he should do. I suggested he produce his own products where he already had an industrial zoned building and thus he could carve out his own commercial kitchen. We designed it together where I acted as his consultant. I moved my equipment to the facility where the basic equipment is still in use today, along with a significant amount of additional equipment he purchased as he grew.
We have remained close friends and have never had any contracts between us. I have no legal interest in his business and he has none in mine. When he moves to his new facility, I am re-opening my previous kitchen since his move will be inconvenient for me and there is no financial benefit for me. My kitchen, once re-fitted will be sufficient for my business. He will still have one important and totally unique piece of equipment of mine in his facility to make pepper mash that I discovered and purchased around 20 years ago that no one in the industry has or uses.
Scott: What's the biggest challenge or hurdle you've had to face thus far in your spicy food industry experiences?
Chuck: Dealing with the onslaught of "me too" competition that has implicated the uniqueness of the spicy foods market. There has been a continuous shake-out and extremely high turnover that began in 1993. Where the fiery foods industry is comprised primarily of start-up entrepreneurs, this shake-out will continue for quite sometime. It is really difficult to get new business where 90% of the little companies and medium-size companies are trying to slice up 10% of a spicy foods market that remains after the large conglomerates have gobbled up and control 90% or more of the fiery and spicy foods market.
What is most discouraging is that the large multi-national companies are copying the true pioneers. Campbell Foods, owner of the Pace Brand has unveiled a line of specialty salsas to compete on a national field with different flavor profiles. The McIlhenny Company has flat-out copied most of their new pepper sauces. Their Chipotle Sauce is a copy of my Smokey Chipotle® Pepper Sauce and their Habanero Sauce was developed after Caribbean Food Products, makers of Trinidad Habanero Pepper Sauce, captured a noticeable market share of the hot sauce business after cutting into their original Tabasco Sauce grocery sales in the southeast, including Florida. Ortega began experimenting with specialty products adding 3 trademark-infringing chipotle products that were subsequently discontinued. These are just a few recent examples of large companies copying the creativeness of the "fireoneers".
Scott: What would you consider to be your favorite sauce or salsa you produce?
Chuck: I have 3 products that are essential in my product line.
My Original Smokey Chipotle® Pepper Sauce. It is the critical ingredient in my entire line of Smokey Chipotle® Sauces and Salsas. However, my very first salsa and best-seller, Montezuma Brand Fiesta Salsa, is as important if not more as the base for my salsa line.
The third is my many Award-Winning Smokey Chipotle® Lime & Garlic Salsa. It is truly a stand-alone product where the salsa has a totally unique flavor profile, yet it is a wildly popular and successful salsa. There is nothing like it on the market today, yet the ingredients are basic Hispanic foods.
Scott: What is your favorite sauce that you don't produce yourself?
Chuck: My two favorites are:
La Victoria Salsa Brava - great flavor, consistency and you can pour it on everything. It is not hot by today's standards, although 20 years ago it was considered fairly spicy where it had a real kick, and wonderful flavor. La Victoria is an older and successful larger company (from the 1920s) and competes nationally with the corporate behemoths.
Also, I think CaJohn's The Legend is the single most pure pepper sauce ever made. It has consistency, quality, an outstanding pure Red Savina flavor profile, heat with flavor, and is a marketer’s dream with a name that says it all.
Additionally, I really enjoy many of the homemade Mexican muddy brownish-red pepper sauces that you find in the markets and restaurants in Mexico, usually made with chiles cascabel, chiles de arbol, chiles pequin, and cayenne-type chiles.
And of course, I love fresh green chile salsa using fresh roasted New Mexican chiles and the fresh salsa verdes from Mexico.
Scott: When developing a new product, how many recipes do you typically go through before you find the final one?
Chuck: Since I have an incredible amount of experience in the formulation of products, I usually hit it on the head within one try and then a slight modification to adjust proportions if not exactly to my liking. Many of my products are extensions - I start all of my tomato salsas with the same base, the same with my tomatillo verde salsas. I then add an ingredient, my chipotle pepper sauce, to make my Smokey Chipotle® Salsa. I then would add garlic to make my Smokey Chipotle® Garlic Salsa. Lime added to this salsa makes my Smokey Chipotle® Lime & Garlic Salsa.
Scott: How often do you eat your own salsas and sauces?
Chuck: Literally everyday for the past 20+ years. I am a true salsa and pepper sauce connoisseur.
Scott: What's the average level of heat that you personally eat with your food?
Chuck: I like hot with flavor - not extract hot, which I totally dislike. A natural Red Savina hot, chile de arbol, fresh serrano, or a wild pequin hot makes me happy. I am not real impressed with the Bhut Jolokia.
Scott: What's the hottest thing you've ever eaten?
Chuck: CaJohn was having me blindly taste-test some spices where I dipped my finger into a bag to guess the ingredients from a mixed blend. He told me to try some Bhut Jolokia. Of course the he intentionally did not tell me that I was tasting Bhut Jolokia where I had dipped my damp finger into a pure powder. I was miserable for a half hour. To make it real short and sweet, don't ever try anything John asks without knowing exactly what he is offering!
Scott: How much sauce and salsa do you produce in a week/month?
Chuck: I do not disclose quantities; however, I do enough to stay in business full-time. I did not grow for the sake of growth and stayed smaller on purpose-another anomaly from most people's goals, however, my product consistency and business longevity are primarily due to this decision.
I did not try to be something to everyone. I decided to "craft" my salsas which are why the flavors meld together and taste "fresh" even though they are cooked products.
Also, I wanted to remain a true small-batch salsero. In fact an early slogan that I used to print on my labels, "Fresh Out of the Jar" is a common response by potential customers when tasting my salsas.
Scott: You've had quite a few companies infringe on the Smokey Chipotle® and Smokin' Chipotle® trademarks. Can you talk a little about this, and are most companies receptive to your cease and desist letters?
Chuck: Interestingly, I became somewhat of an authority on trademark law, by trial and error and lots of legal study. I handled all of my trademark infringement matters myself and have dealt with the most prestigious specialized trademark firms in the country and overseas. I have also dealt with corporate counsel for many multi-national corporations.
I have probably defended my trademark more than 100+ times in the past 13 years. About 80% comply with my cease and desist letters which fully explains the law and the reason my trademark is protected and cannot be canceled. The other 20% are no longer in business or have discontinued the infringing product label. A few continue to push the envelope; they continue to be addressed as required and are named on my Trademark Violator's List which is forever displayed on the internet when the company name is searched.
Importantly, I have won a trademark cancellation proceeding instituted by Urban Accents, Inc. and supported by Kraft Foods, North America. Due to this decision in which I addressed the issues and law in my briefs, after 2 years, the U.S. Trademark Trial and Appeal Board dismissed the cancellation proceeding, therefore giving me clear precedent that my mark is forever incontestable. Also, I had a pending application for my Smokin' Chipotle® trademark, a gamble that if I lost the cancellation proceeding that my application would have been denied.
The application was opposed upon publication again by Kraft Foods, North America, after receiving approval for publication by the examining attorney for the trademark office. Kraft lost this legal battle also. It is safe to say that anyone using the combination of any variation of the word "smoke" with the word "chipotle" in a phrase for packaged food products is an infringement upon my trademark.
When I request that an infringer cease and desist I always provide the option for the manufacturer to use up their label inventory within 6 months and make a small settlement for this privilege. Most companies and individuals are willing to make this concession due to the money tied up in their inventories. Really small manufacturers are not requested to make any settlement and are offered a window to terminate their label usage as specified.
Scott: What's the most asked question you get from people?
Chuck: Three questions in a row: "Really? You've been making sauces that long? How did you get started?"
Scott: How do you stay up-to-date with goings-on in the spicy food industry? What are some of your info sources?
Chuck: I have been around so long that I get information from many others, CaJohn and I talk all the time, Jungle Jim's has become a bigger venue, the chile blogs are more stable lately and therefore less cliquish, magazine articles, Dave DeWitt's site, and internet searches. In the old 1990s days, the Chile Pepper Magazine was the primary source of information for the chilehead community.
Scott: If you could ask one questions to your sauce fans or chileheads in general, what would it be?
Chuck: If anything was possible to package and preserve, what product would you like to see made?
Scott: Outside of making spicy products, what do you do in your spare time?
Chuck: I am an amateur archaeologist and history aficionado of the arts and cultures of native peoples of the Americas. I also enjoy food history of foods of the Americas and the history of trade routes between different native civilizations. I like to dance salsa meringue, enjoy Hispanic foods and culture and am a third degree black belt in tae kwon do, where I practiced for 20 years after wrestling in my state championships in high school. I am active in my church choir.
Scott: Where do you see the fiery foods industry going in the next several years?
Chuck: I think the number of manufacturers will ebb and tide like it has done the past 16 or so years. There is some consolidation and with more difficult economic times and significantly increased competition, you have to be more dedicated than a weekend hobbyist. This is the most noticeable change to me. The smaller manufacturers cannot just throw out a product with a paper label from the copier which used to happen more often. There is a pride of professionalism in product packaging that continues to evolve. I think that the extracts will have their space, but may not attain the acclaim they have since Dave's Insanity set the stage at an early Fiery Foods Show.
I believe that salsa will continue to become more prevalent with even bigger varieties offered in the grocery stores as its flavor, uniqueness, and nutritional benefits continue to become part of a healthy diet.
I believe that hot pepper sauces will trend to being even more chile-specific; however, there are limitations as to the popularity of the chile used in the pepper sauce. Tabasco® is the king of longevity of a chile specific pepper sauce. While I don't particularly care for the flavor of the bhut jolokia I certainly understand its cache appeal and believe that the fact that a small amount can be added to increase heat, that it will be an adequate substitute for those who are looking for a natural heat in place of a bitter extract. And finally, chipotle will continue to grow into even more mainstream usage and while already fast becoming an important spice, will remain so.
...You can visit the Montezuma Brand website to see and purchase Chuck Evans' hot sauces, salsas, marinades, BBQ sauces, wing sauces, seasonings, dry rubs, spices, and tortilla chips and more.
Comments
2009-09-18 07:15:25
See you in March Chuck.
2009-09-30 21:48:05
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